Since Trump, I’m finding the Lemmy.world experience to be increasingly akin to an echo chamber and it’s quite frankly starting to bore me. (Inb4, I’m a left winger and I don’t like Trump, but I’m much more interested in a good spirited debate or novel points of view than I am in Orange man bad Nazi circle jerks)
If I wanted the same repetitive comments to be upvoted and any different opinion at all to be downvoted and even blocked/banned, I’d have just stayed on Reddit.
Are there any instances where different, opposing and novel points of view are celebrated and debated rather than simply derided and downvoted?
What kind of diversity of thought are you looking for?
Could you give an example?
Is there an intellectually honest point of view that Donald Trump isn’t a fascist?
I don’t think he’s a fascist necessarily, although he is a far-right, authoritarian ultranationalist. So that makes him… oh.
Small, niche communities, and unfortunately you’ll probably need to know what ideas you’re interested in ahead of time to get there.
People with intelligent but divergent ideas are always outnumbered by people pushing an agenda, and they end up getting moderated together because it’s hard to superficially know the difference.
Note that it’s entirely possible to have an echo chamber that’s divergent from bigger echo chambers, and that’s were a lot of people are pointing you, because of the instance you asked on.
I think Lemmy is at an all-time low for patience towards non-conformist opinions due to recent events being… upsetting. Give it some time and folks will be more willing to consider other ideas i think
It’s emotional times so I understand that rationality ends up taking a back seat in the mind. I hope you’re right!
I had a much better experience with Reddit than a lot of people express. Of course that all changed that year and half ago. But my point is that I was deep into a world of intellectualism on Reddit that I have not found since it was wrecked. I have found Lemmy to be an infant version of that.
It is hard to find communities like I had, if there is any activity in my interests at all. I have not found a news feed as quick as the ones I followed on Reddit if any feed at all. Information sourcing and original content almost never happen. The politics are highly tribal and intellectual here. The science barely exists. The hobbies and special interests have little to no activity. I only have the app on my phone to look for a quick read.
You might be better off looking for a community where the moderation optimizes for that kind of discussion (ex. Removing low effort comments, requiring citations, academic oriented, etc). It’s harder to find an entire instance that matches those points, but there should be a few communities like that
Then you can use the subscribed feed only, or block the communities you don’t like
i agree with this
i started a free speech community and theres no downvoting allowed which encourages healthy arguing instead of comments just getting buried in downvotes or removed
i started a free speech community
Which one is it?
not telling
No single instance has very “broad” POVs, however some instances are federated more broadly and thus get more points of view. To that end, Lemm.ee and Lemmy.ml are much more diverse than Lemmy.world, which is defederated from the major instances with large populations of Marxists.
Hexbear and Grad tend to have a lot of Marxist (and Anarchist, in the case of Hexbear) perspectives you aren’t really seeing much of on Lemmy.world, which is very “US Democrat Liberal.”
You aren’t going to find anywhere where the virtue of being “different” is worthy of celebration when it comes to POVs, and I think that’s a bit of a lost cause. I don’t see much value in entertaining the opinions of fascists, as an example.
Thanks for this. Will definitely check out those instances.
No problem! If you’re looking for right-wing viewpoints, you can already see them from a Lemmy.world account, they usually hang out either on Lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works, it’s more the Leftists that Lemmy.world censors from your view.
never seen an anarchist on hexbear tbh, but I’ve been alwaus banned pretty fast for stating my opinions on the state and the ukraine war
I’ve seen many, and Anarchist theory is linked and discussed frequently. Sectarianism is banned, so you haven’t likely seen Anarchists getting into fights with Marxists. As for the Ukranian war, Hexbear overall adopts the viewpoint of Lenin’s analysis of Imperialism as a special stage in Capitalist development, including the Anarchists, so you likely disagreed on those grounds.
There’s some peeps who claim they’re anarchist on hexbear, but end up parroting the same ML-talking points about AES and often have similar toxic behaviour towards those who disagree with the groupthink. If any are there, they’re basically campists, like the rest. For example of such campist anarchist takes, you can take a look at abolitionmedia. But ultimately these anarchists are pretty isolated from the larger anarchist movement.
The biggest difference is that Anarchists on Hexbear almost always agree with Lenin’s analysis of modern Capitalism in Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, and further recognize AES states as far better than their Capitalist peers. They often have similar takes as MLs but fundamentally disagree with how to structure revolution, and society post-revolution.
I think it’s a bit of an odd take to say that they are isolated from the larger Anarchist movement. Perhaps in the West, I can concede that, but globally? It’s the opposite, those Anarchists that support AES over Capitalism and accept Imperialism as a special stage of Monopoly Capitalism are in the majority. I think that your statement is, ironically, a campist one that seeks to undermine the legitimacy of their takes while supporting your own.
For what it’s worth, you already know I’m an ML, I can let Anarchists speak for themselves, my being a former Anarchist isn’t the same as a current Anarchist giving their POV.
The biggest difference is that Anarchists on Hexbear almost always agree with Lenin’s analysis of modern Capitalism in Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, and further recognize AES states as far better than their Capitalist peers. They often have similar takes as MLs but fundamentally disagree with how to structure revolution, and society post-revolution.
Yes, I am aware that this is what you believe. However I would argue one can’t accept “AES” but disagree on “how to structure revolution, and society post-revolution.” because what Anarchists want look nothing like those “AES” states, and therefore the paradox.
It’s the opposite, those Anarchists that support AES over Capitalism and accept Imperialism as a special stage of Monopoly Capitalism are in the majority.
Utter nonsense. Anarchists which accept Leninist analysis are extraordinarily few.
I think that your statement is, ironically, a campist one that seeks to undermine the legitimacy of their takes while supporting your own.
That’s not what campism means.
I think it’s pretty clear that one can accept AES as clear improvements for the conditions of the Working Class as compared to Capitalism, while preferring decentralization and approaches like prefiguration over centralization and public ownership/planning. It isn’t a paradox to say “A is bad, B is much better than A, but I ultimately want C.”
Further, Lenin’s analysis of Imperialism as a special phase in Capitalist development is 100% compatible with Anarchism, as it purely describes Capitalist development and not how to achieve revolution or what a post-revolitionary society should look like. I specifically mentioned analysis of Imperialism and preference of AES over Capitalism, and not Marxist-Leninist analysis of the State, Class, etc, because those aren’t compatible with Anarchism. What Lenin outlines in Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism is a fact that can’t be denied. Developed Capitalist countries have seen merging of Banks and Industrialists, resulting in Financial Capital dominating industry, with Monopolies of the few governing the economy and exporting Capital to the Global South in order to super-exploit for super-profits. To deny Imperialism is like denying Colonialism.
We see this alignment of Anarchists globally against Imperialism in societies like the EZLN, which takes much inspiration from Marxism-Leninism with their own characteristics. Those in the Global South are intimately familiar with the mechanisms by which they are exploited and oppressed by the US and Western Europe especially, which is why the Anarchists in the Global South tend to align more with Marxists than Capitalists.
As for Campism, my point is more that you group Anarchists that disagree with you up with Marxists if they recognize the impacts of Western Imperialism and reduce it to Campism. I admit, I could have worded it better, but it’s a bad rhetorical trick to deliberately reduce the logical foundations of a position to purely whatever it happens to look like on the outside.
think it’s pretty clear that one can accept AES as clear improvements for the conditions of the Working Class as compared to Capitalism,
That’s the thing. Anarchists don’t see “aes” as separate from Capitalism. They are capitalism. Just with a red coat off paint. I can accept that their style of state Capitalism may be an improvement in some areas while being a problem in others, much like Nordic social democracies are different from the unrestrained Capitalism of the USA. But none of them is something anarchists truly support. And therefore again, a paradox in your argument.
Further, Lenin’s analysis of Imperialism as a special phase in Capitalist development is 100% compatible with Anarchism
Seeing that capitalist nations exploit the poorer ones doesn’t require Lenin anyway. This isn’t what makes one accept “aes” or the campist mindframre
We see this alignment of Anarchists globally against Imperialism in societies like the EZLN, which takes much inspiration from Marxism-Leninism with their own characteristics. Those in the Global South are intimately familiar with the mechanisms by which they are exploited and oppressed by the US and Western Europe especially, which is why the Anarchists in the Global South tend to align more with Marxists than Capitalists.
Anarchists always fall in the anti capitalistic camp but that’s where the alignment is ends. There’s no evidence that those in the “global south” are approaching MLs any different than I do.
As for Campism, my point is more that you group Anarchists that disagree with you up with Marxists if they recognize the impacts of Western Imperialism and reduce it to Campism
No I just point that anarchists who hang out in hexbear or which regurgitate ml talking points about being two sides, are just campist. I don’t know call critics of Capitalism campsits. I only call campist, campists.
To claim that economies where public ownership and planning is primary are Capitalist is silly. That either requires believing that states like Cuba and the USSR don’t/didn’t have public ownership and planning as the dominant factor of political economy, or a belief that Public Ownership and Planning as primary is Capitalist. The former would be a case of historical inaccuracy, the latter is theoretically ridiculous. I believe you are supplanting your own opinions on Socialism onto Anarchists in general, who tend to prefer Anarchism over Marxism due to differences in analysis of the state, not necessarily what is considered Socialist to begin with.
Saying the difference between pubicly owned and planned economies as primary and privately owned and planned economies as primary is simply a “red coat of paint” is a serious analytical failure, you can acknowledge Marxism as Socialist without thinking it better than Anarchism.
Secondly, you’re entirely pivoting your point regarding Lenin’s Imperialism, I think. Are you acknowledging that you misunderstood what I was talking about, or are you saying Lenin’s analysis of Imperialism isn’t accurate? Moreover, it isn’t just about how more developed Capitalist nations exploit countries in the Global South, it’s an analysis that this is the main obstruction of Socialism of any kind, be it Anarchist or Marxist. Further, it’s an analysis of Imperialism as the dying stages of Capitalism, as it directly results in inter-Imperialist wars and total folding of every nation under the thumb of Imperialism until nations begin to break free, weakening Imperialism overall.
Finally, I think you need to talk to more Anarchists globally, and not just in the West. The Zapatistas in EZLN openly cite Marxism-Leninism as one of the founding influences of Zapatismo. Historically as well, Marxists such as the Soviets provided material aid to Anarchist revolutionaries. To only claim Anarchists hostile to Marxism as legitimate, and denouncing Anarchists willing to work with Marxists against Capitalism and Imperialism, is a bit chauvanistic.
Edit: As for the “two sides campism is ML,” that’s just further proving my point, you refuse to look at the internal logic and call things whatever you outwardly see them as, like you did with calling AES “Capitalist.”
I think you are going to have a hard time finding a place to talk with a group that overall deals in bad faith arguments and hate speech. They also tend to silo themselves off to their own platforms over concerns that their hate speech gets them moderated (because Free Speech != does not mean speech without consequences or needs to be tolerated by everyone).
If you really want to see the MAGA “point of view” you are probably better off going to them on Truth Social, Gab, 4chan, The_Donald, etc.
This is kind of the derision that I’m talking about. (I am assuming that you are talking about the right wing). Whilst there is some truth to it, you disagreeing with them or their arguments doesn’t mean that it isn’t interesting, or worthy of discussion or debate.
I do agree that hate speech should be banned and that isn’t what I’m interested in.
I’m not interested in the MAGA point of view per se, I’m interested in a diverse spectrum of ideas and opinions that reflect a real cross section of society, where undoubtedly some of them will be MAGA people. Whereas there is a very strong left leaning bias here.
The issue is that you can’t have discussion or debate with:
- statements in bad faith
- statements not based on reality (conspiracy theories/misinformation/“alternative facts”
So the issue is once you have removed those, you aren’t left with many people holding a very broad spectrum of viewpoints outside of niche topics (Vi vs Emacs).
It’s extremely big headed to think that only the people who agree with you are arguing honestly and have not based their arguments on any incorrect information.
I’m here to learn and grow, not to circle jerk with my friends about how right we are.
I don’t think it’s always a difficult task to tell if someone is arguing in bad faith or not, and someone basing their argument on incorrect information is not that (and I assume you know that). So trying to say that I see a mere disagreement on a topic the same as one made in bad faith sounds like you’re trying to conflate the two, making it a bad faith argument.
But if pretending a ‘difference of opinion = bad faith argument’ is what you’re looking for I guess good luck. That is what I would call a “circle jerk”, but to each their own. Not sure how that type of discussion with no basis in reality can help anyone to “learn and grow” though.
.world is very liberal, it isn’t really accurate to call it “left leaning.” You aren’t going to find many MAGA people on the fediverse.
In the UK there is some similarity between liberal and left wing ideas, despite them being distinct political groups. Liberalism was originally seen as very left wing, a lot of people are now arguing that there is more in common with right wing politics, small state and such.
I’d say my experience here has been much more left wing than liberal though, just my opinion.
Liberalism was only “left” when Capitalism was progressive, which was only true in comparison to Monarchism and Feudalism. Liberalism is a firmly Capitalist ideology, while Socialism is leftist.
A better question is which instances have dominant points of view that actually align with the material reality we inhabit. Difference of opinion is only valuable when the opinion is grounded in factual understanding of the real world. It’s valuable to have different views and interpretation of the facts, but if a view is divorced from reality then it’s just noise.
just like vanguardism
Can you elaborate?
I don’t like the state and like the idea of a vanguard party even less and I belive that user to be vanguardist
thank you for providing an example of dialogue that’s detached from reality
so you are not a vanguardist?
or am I wrong about vanguardism being bad?
please elaborate
You are wrong about vanguarism being bad because history clear shows that it is the most reliable method for actually combating capitalism. Anarchists refuse to accept this basic reality and continue advocating approaches that have failed time and again for over a century now. It’s quite telling that this ideology exists primarily in the western imperial core.
no, I just think that freedom is more important than defeating capitalism
I’d rather take my hrt, guns and free speech over a vanguard, sorry
also see how it has worked in russia, how the soviet union has defeated capitalism and how capitalist western germany was almost economically stronger than the entire ussr (including eastern germany)
Do people do good, spirited debates anymore? Most of what I see would be more akin to wrestling a pig.
We have to be the change we want to see
Imagine your issue with .world being that it’s too left-wing
I’d be getting bored if it was an echo chamber of any flavour.
As I’ve said in other comments, I’m here to learn and part of that means exposing myself to people that do not think alike to me. I’m not hear to circle jerk about how right we are, maybe that was fun the first few thousand times, it’s just boring now.
Ideally I’d like to get involved with a broad spectrum of people that somewhat represent the society that we live in.
Maybe I should just get offline and go to the pub.
Bored of the truth?
“Opinions are like arseholes”, but when you’ve seen 1,000 very similar arseholes you’re probably going to want to see some different ones.
if you’re looking for an instance that won’t ban you based on your political belives check out lemmy.blahaj.zone
EDIT: not entirely true, you actually have to belive in basic human rights to be part of this community
Blahaj takes an openly anti-Marxist stance, at minimum.
don’t really think so, I’ve seen pretty much any form of leftists over there, tho they will disagree with you regarding genocide acusations in china
Blahaj zone will ban you at the drop of a hat based on political belief.
and for what belive have you been banned there?
For being opposed to western chauvinism.
